NeverarGreat

I don’t mind the flipped shot, the biggest issue for me is the absence of a line. Maybe if Finn said something in the background like “Still busted. Dammit, I told him not to Lightspeed slip the Falcon.” Then we’d get a confirmed reason why the Falcon’s broken and not just because of plot convenience.

Or maybe he continues the thought about Exegol.

“All that matters is the Wayfinder. Finding Exegol.”
“That’s what we’re doing. And once we get there? Then what?”
“I’m going to find Palpatine…and destroy him.”

It’s an Abrams staple that we have something going on at all times, if we don’t it feels weird 😉

Ah I see. That makes sense.

There’s that as well, but I’ve always found it a strange and horrifying implication that a clone’s death is more justifiable than the death of a more ‘normal’ person. I’ve even seen people online specifically saying that clones aren’t really people, so it’s okay that they are dying by the thousands.

I honestly would have just preferred it if George had given us a Republic army vs Clones, because at least then there would be no denying that this war was waged at horrible human cost, no matter how a person viewed the clones. As it is, the ‘family friendly’ marketing of droids vs clones implies that clones are less than a true person, and for me is far more ethically insidious than just admitting that war is inseparable from atrocity.

Sounds good, but I’m still a bit confused. Are we keeping the next scene of Rey where she says that Palps killed her parents and therefore she will destroy him?

Sideburns of BoShek said:

Sorry for the thread bump, but thought I’d post here rather than start a new thread.
 

I remember thinking the Clone Wars were fought over the ethical and practical applications of clones. That greedy and slave profiteers like the Clone Masters recruited Mandalorians to fight for them and lead their clone fighters, due to their historical fights and dislike of the Jedi. The Mandalorians were basically mercenaries, and were willing to be cloned by the clone masters in return for money, better weapon technology, and a chance to fight with the Clone Armies at their side vs the Jedi and the smaller force of the Republic military.

Jedi were wandering ronins, going around and righting wrongs and injustice. Like in a Kurosawa film, or like King Arthur’s Knights. Far from what we saw in the PT films with the Jedi hierarchy and being close to the Senate but not with the people in The Republic. No ban on attachments, having families and children and so on.

Anakin never knew or met Yoda, just that Yoda once taught Obi-Wan. I remember guessing that The Emperor could be a fallen Jedi, and maybe that is how he turned Anakin, knowing what heartstrings to pull, the Jedi’s strengths, weaknesses, what to prey on to get him see things from his point of view, and turn him to the dark side.

The whole thing would be more mystical feel than we got later in the PT films. More of a “we can’t solve our differences with a lightsaber, but with our knowledge of the force” with characters like Dooku vs Yoda, and not the other way around like we actually saw in the PT.

That Padme suspected Anakin of beginning to turn to the dark side. Maybe even luring and killing Jedi? Betraying them? She already had Luke and Leia. I think that was based on those mid 90’s paintings for the Topps cards.

The Clone masters, or Mandalorians had secretly managed to somehow learn how reprogram droids in The Republic to rebel and kill their Republic masters. Resulting in millions of deaths before these errant droids on the rampage were somehow stopped. And that is why some people are seen not to trust droids, that droids have restraining bolts, or limits placed on them and what they can do.

Some of this was hinted at in the Thrawn novels if I remember correctly and books like Children of the Jedi. It would have been a far more interesting and coherent version of the conflict IMO, and it almost seemed like Lucas made the clones warriors of the Republic just to subvert expectations.

Continuing the ‘good parents’ vs ‘bad parents’ discussion, it seems to me like the two concepts are irreconcilable. I would say just to have the ‘good parents’ angle be a lie by Palpatine in this movie to give Rey some motivation to hate him, but as Hal said it conflicts with the vision that Rey has, and this has to be the truth, at least in terms of what the audience feels. But if this is the truth, then it conflicts with the spirit of TLJ. So maybe the first part of this scene is all about the battle between these ideas, between Rey’s belief that her parents were good and her knowledge that they were really terrible.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I see a war within you. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“A part of you believes that you were abandoned. You were unplanned, unwanted.”

“Don’t!”

“But a part of you refuses to believe it. It’s too painful, even now.”

“I don’t want this!”

“So you made a new memory.”

“No!”

“Your parents didn’t abandon you. They protected you.”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“Such a powerful, desperate desire…if only it were true.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I know what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“You were right, Rey. Your parents did love you. They were looking for Luke’s friends on Jakku, a hidden sanctuary where you would be safe. But the Emperor’s assassin found them first.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“No!”

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor was searching for you. I’ll come tell you.”

DZ-330 said:

NFBisms said:

I’m not denying Disney is falling off hard, and I’m glad for it, but the casually inoffensive left-y politics that make it into a trade article here or there have never been the “sole” tool. You see it once and get all up in arms about it, that says more about you than it does Disney. What is Ant-Man Quantumania’s excuse

Evangeline Lilly has been very vocal about being anti-vax online. Disney won’t market her because of it.

Huh. Disney actually did something right for once.

NFBisms said:

the right person with the right passion and the right knowledge

How does (in the best faith reading of your response) a desperate, pandering marketing tactic exclude this possibility?

Exactly right. Anjohan apparently decided that because one article focused on the fact that this director is a woman, that she doesn’t have ‘the right passion and the right knowledge’ to make a Star Wars movie, and I’m not going to bend over backwards trying to pretend that there’s a more good faith reading of it than that.

Anjohan said:

Mocata said:

https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1742306227143520688

Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy is directing Daisy Ridley’s new #StarWars movie about Rey rebuilding the Jedi Order. She’s the first woman to direct a “Star Wars” movie and says “it’s about time.”

“I’m very thrilled about the project because I feel what we’re about to create is something very special. We’re in 2024 now, and it’s about time that we had a woman come forward to shape a story in a galaxy far, far away.”

These people never learn. When it is more important to focus on gender equality (which is mainly a leftist, media-spewed myth) than the right person with the right passion and the right knowledge, then the product is strictly f*cked up before it’s hit the ground running (or in disney’s case, just flat out hit the ground).

They just never learn. MCU is dying. Their streaming platform is dying. Their animated movies are dying. Star Wars is nearly dead.

What do they do? Keep telling us that the problem is not enough female involvement.

So how many Academy Awards have you won, bud? I’m guessing less than her.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. You are destined for darkness. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. They had no power in the Force.”

“Don’t!”

“But you did. Like my grandfather, you were different, powerful…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…and the Sith took notice.”

“No!”

“Your parents couldn’t escape them.”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I know what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents heard rumors of a hidden settlement, a sanctuary of the Force. They took you to Jakku, hoping you’d be safe. But then their luck ran out. They were captured…by an agent of the Emperor.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why Palpatine’s assassin was searching for you. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“He didn’t want to kill you, Rey. He created you…through the power of the Dark Side. Just like he created my grandfather.”

“You and I are vessels for the Emperor’s spirit, heirs to the dark throne. That is why we are connected…to each other…and to him. But we can kill him, and bring a new order to the galaxy…together.”

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I do.”

This was just posted, BTW.

I mean, this isn’t the first time that blood relations have kissed in Star Wars. But if we end up going with this angle, we could just cut the kiss entirely, since many people don’t care for it regardless. That’s what I would do, rather than worry about making it clear that they aren’t technically related. After all, the most simple explanation is that Palpatine acted as a sort of father to both Anakin and Rey, whether he introduced his own DNA or not.

JJ, you’re going to realize that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

The big concern I’m getting here is that if we substantially change canon in this scene, we’re going to alienate people who liked the previous canon, or at least alienate people who believe that the established canon is inevitable going forward and can’t be changed.

On the other hand, many of these changes, such as Palpatine creating Anakin to be his heir, explain so much about these sequels that it seems a shame to discard them. Similarly, Rey Palpatine is so destructive to credulity that it seems a shame to keep it as an undisputed fact.

So here’s a thought: We could move both of these changes into the realm of the speculative.

Jedi seem to have questionable visions during their training. Padme dying in childbirth in a different way than how it happened, Luke becoming Vader or seeing his friends suffer and die, Rey’s visions here. It seems like a rite of passage for a Jedi to get visions whose only purpose is to seemingly confirm their deepest fear, a fear that will only come true if they give in to it.

A big blank spot here is Kylo’s visions. What did he see during his training with Luke that made him become Kylo Ren? And here is where we can reveal this crucial part of his past: He had a vision that his grandfather was created by Palpatine, and thus his family wasn’t truly Skywalker, but Palpatine. This is close enough to canon that it is reasonable, but different enough to poison his entire worldview…and Luke’s.

When Rey has her visions, Kylo can tell her that her vision is similar to his, and it confirms that she was created by Palpatine just like his grandfather. Kylo takes her visions seriously, incorporating them into his story about their common destiny as Palpatines.

When Rey goes to Luke he tells her about Leia’s training, and the visions she had that caused her to turn away from her Jedi path. He says he suspects now that these visions happen to everyone training to be a Jedi, and while they reveal emotional truth, they may not accurately reflect reality. “Our view of the future is ever changing…but I never considered that this is also true of the past.”

I’m just playing around with the idea that this whole Rey Palpatine thing is a lie by Palpatine. My original idea was that it was just a few visions planted by him in her mind, but as people pointed out this would mean that all Rey needs to do is reject that story for the drama to end. So maybe Palpatine’s presence in Rey’s mind is more than just visions, but is closer to a full-on possession. If Rey was being not-so-subtly controlled by Palpatine, emotionally and mentally, then her strange actions, her abandonment of her friends, her dark powers and visions of an evil version of herself, all of this would make sense.

With this idea Rey is genuinely compromised, just as Kylo was when he fell to the Dark Side. This ties in nicely to Ben’s shattered psyche, why he continues to follow a dark path even when he seems drawn to the light. He is still being controlled and manipulated by Palpatine, against his better nature. He only comes fully back to the light by literally disassociating and conjuring memories of his dead father to converse with. So as Rey falls to the dark, we are getting a vision of Ben’s fall to the dark as well.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you have become. You’re corrupted. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Worthless drunkards from the outer rim.”

“Don’t!”

“But now you have a different story in your head.”

“I don’t want this!”

“Do you hear voices?”

“No!”

“Perhaps you see visions.”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“So now your parents were heroes. I wonder why.”

“Stop talking.”

“You truly believe this, don’t you?”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“You really believe your parents loved you…and sent you away to protect you. And now I suppose they will die to protect their beloved child. Such noble scavengers.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“I know how this story ends…why Palpatine wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“You already know the answer, Rey. The answer he gave to me on Exegol. You’re a Palpatine.”

“The Emperor once corrupted me, just as he’s now infected you through our connection. But I fought back against his visions. I know we can destroy him, Rey…and bring a new order to the galaxy…together.”

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I do.”

…

When Rey is talking about vengeance for the death of her parents, Finn’s concern about this not sounding like Rey is well-founded, and her strange demeanor now makes sense. We are not supposed to believe that she is being logical, since she, like Kylo, is unable to see clearly when under the influence of this dark power.

…

For this, it would probably be good to delete or change Kylo’s line of 'The Dark Side is in our nature. Surrender to it."

Perhaps it can become “The Dark Side is corrupting you. Don’t surrender to it.”

Cutting or changing this line would make Kylo into the sympathetic character here, trying to prevent Rey from falling completely under Palpatine’s control.

…

Luke would need just a bit more dialogue to allow this new version of the story:

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself.”
“Because you’re a Palpatine. Leia sensed that fear in you.”
“She didn’t tell me. She still trained me.”

…

In this version of the story, it doesn’t much matter what sort of Palpatine Rey is. Most of Kylo’s dialogue would be focused on questioning Rey’s behavior. It would be nice if there was some explanation of just who she was in his story, and a mention could fit in somewhere in the hangar scene, but again it’s not crucial, and may be better left to the imagination.

DZ-330 said:

Not sure if this could be relevant for V5 Ascendant, but the AI lines and concept are pretty cool!

https://youtu.be/nWgweAQLCmI?si=srSqX2D9WlqYCiTR

That was a sort of thing I was considering for this scene in an earlier idea, except instead of Luke Kylo is conversing with Han in order to establish his later scene with Han’s memory.

I agree that the final version of this concept will need to be simple enough to be conveyed in a few lines, with more of the lines left to explore character as you said. It all has to flow from one thought to another, as if Kylo were really saying these things in the heat of the moment, so it can’t feel like he’s giving her a college lecture about cloning or complex family lineages or introducing new terms halfway through the last film. And we need to be aware of Rey’s reactions as well. When she says ‘No!’ as she is on the verge of tears, it can’t be to something like ‘Actually Rey, your parents were good people.’ This always felt weird, since surely she would want that to be true and she wouldn’t fight back against it.

So yes, I agree with you RL that Rey’s parents being retonned as good is a strange thing that feels like a fanedit in the original film, a replacement for information that was originally much more devastating to Rey. Unless we can recreate that moment, the scene will always feel off.

Rey being intentionally left on a desert planet to become tough and mean is a very Dune approach to this, which is good. And I think if we’re viewing this trilogy in a vacuum it works, but I can’t help but think back to the previous two trilogies, each of which had a protagonist who grew up on a harsh desert planet and each of which ultimately turned to the light. So I can’t quite imagine Palpatine doing this and thinking that it would be a slam-dunk bet for making a hate-filled Dark Side apprentice. Granted this is the first story where the protagonist doesn’t have a family of any kind to raise her, but that seems like a good reason to focus the story away from the location aspect and onto the lack of parents aspect.

I don’t think we need to specify that Palpatine wanted Rey alive as a child. We just need to establish that he wants the strongest of his potential hosts to rule, which means that one of them must kill the other.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. The Dark Side is your birthright. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Your father had no part in your conception.”

“Don’t!”

“You are so like my grandfather. So like Darth Vader….”

“I don’t want this!”

“…destined for evil.”

“No!”

“Your parents sent you away.”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I know what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents knew you were different, even then. They went to Jakku, seeking Luke’s disciples. They were desperate for his protection. But an agent of the Emperor found them first.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because he created you, through the Force…like he created Darth Vader…to be his heir. Rey…you’re a Palpatine.”

“The Emperor told me to kill you so that I may ascend to the throne. But we share the Emperor’s power. It is our birthright, Rey. We can destroy him…and bring a new order to the galaxy…together.”

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

…

Then when Palpatine is draining their life force:

“The life force of your bond…the life I gave you…a power like life itself. I shall take back what is mine. And now, the power of two restores the one true Emperor.”

It would be interesting to make a connection between Palpatine’s presence in the galaxy and the Skywalkers turning to evil. So after Palpatine was destroyed the first time, Luke and Leia may have been free of his influence, but once he returned in a clone body they and their son were once again tempted by evil, which is why Leia gave up her Jedi training out of fear and why Ben quickly turned when he began his training, as well as why Luke hid on an island after sensing that he was also becoming corrupted by Palpatine’s returning power.

Kylo may say that he wants to turn back to the light, but he is prevented from this by Palpatine, and only together can he and Rey hope to vanquish him and both return to the light. So when Rey later tells him

“I did want to take your hand…Ben’s hand.”

she is specifically referencing this moment where Kylo promises that he will come back to the light.

Ah cool.

And this idea could replace the Dyad concept entirely. Palpatine created the Skywalkers and Rey, so they’re really all one family, designed to share the power of the Force between them. The ‘Skywalker is just a good Palpatine’ is a nice angle, tying everything together.

The hangar revelation could be that Kylo is finally admitting that both Rey and the Skywalkers were created entirely by Palpatine for his own nefarious purposes, and so he tells Rey that their only hope in destroying him is if they act together.

I wasn’t suggesting that we remove Rey’s backstory flashbacks, just that there could be a small shift so Kylo is talking about his own family history as well as Rey’s.

There exists a prophecy of the Giant Circular Pit Death in Star Wars, and it is this: If a character is cast down a giant circular pit, then they are destined to survive.

See: Darth Maul in TPM, Obi-wan in ROTS, Boba Fett in ROTJ, Palpatine in ROTJ, and Ben in TROS.

Yep, and Leia’s son being evil by default becomes a natural outcome of this concept, so much so that it’s surprising to Snoke that he is being drawn back to the light.

I think this could definitely be the optimal solution to this Rey Palpatine problem, especially since it brings everything full circle. If Kylo told Rey that Palpatine’s attempts to achieve immortality led to Anakin’s birth, then Palpatine’s return would probably be signified by another such birth…hence Rey.